Honda Fury Forums: banner

clutch performance ?

6K views 31 replies 13 participants last post by  krashDH 
#1 ·
Has anyone here experienced what i call "clutch hopping" My 2010 has 22K on it and I have had intermittent issues since i got the bike in Aug 2014 with 6900 miles on it. I wrote the first few episodes off as learning curve on this bike. It reminds me of when i first learned to drive a stick shift car and didnt quite have the throttle/clutch balance worked out and the car would "hop". After the initial learning curve hops i have not had any issues with the bike hopping at stop light all of 2015/2016 until just recently in cold weather (mid/upper 20'sF) morning commute mainly i have to be real deliberate and focused on the throttle/clutch balance or it hops. I have to pull the clutch wait for the idle to come down and try again....it has even been rather funny for those watching i am sure...it just kind of escalates if i dont have patience and get the bike to calm down before trying to take off again....bunny rabbit riding style hop hop hop hip-pit-tee-hop hop

Anyone else belong belong to this hopping bike dork club besides me?
 
#2 ·
#3 · (Edited)
Thanks Biker was just about to post that up.

I definitely felt like a rookie also, and I have ridden for a long time. It was embarrassing to leave places with other bikers as I knew it would happen and there was nothing I could do to control it!

To go into a bit more detail, the issue would only really happen at startup, when the bike was cold, and was the first release of the clutch. No matter how much I would warm the bike up, open and close the clutch lever, anything, when I went to start off in first gear, no matter how I tried to feather it, when the pressure plate engaged with the clutch pack, it would essentially "slam" and grab the whole mass of friction disks/plates and create a "thunk" sound, and the bike would engage instantly, causing the bike to jump or lurch. This was fairly violent, and scary, as no matter what I did on that first release, it seemed to happen. It also happened once or twice at a stop light, which was even more nerve racking, as if I wasn't prepared for it knowing it was coming, could have put me into another car, intersection, etc.

The smooth release of these bikes comes from the friction disks/plates initially being separated, and by releasing the clutch lever, the pressure plate engages or comes into contact one plate at a time, then grabbing the next, and so on, so you take off smooth. If it grabs the entire spinning mass, then the bike will jump forward.

The theory is the lack of oiling in the clutch pack. Heat in the clutch pack along with the surface friction of the plates can cause the pack to stick together. If there is no oil, there is nothing to keep these from separating. The longer this goes on, the worse the clutch pack gets. Mine may have been abused by the PO, but it didn't look horrible, but you could definitely see the discoloration in the plates...it was getting very hot in there. And per the link, you can see the solution I came to solve the issue.

Haven't had one problem since.
 
  • Like
Reactions: WI_Hedgehog
#5 ·
I bought my 2013 new and this has been a common occurrence when the bike is cold in that it will somewhat bang into first if I start her up and then shift soon after to 1st. The best rememedh I have found for this is when your ready to leave, hold the clutch in for like 10 seconds and then shift into 1st.. when I do that it's like butter. I have incorporated it into my process by holding the clutch in when I roll down my driveway in reverse when she's cold.
Other then that, I have no banging or hard shifts..
 
#6 ·
I tried everything under the sun to break the clutch pack apart prior to taking off in first gear. It didn't matter if I held it open for 10 minutes or 10 seconds (to let oil free flow in), rolling down the driveway, holding the brake while releasing the clutch (to the point where I felt pressure like the bike wanted to move forward). Even this was not enough the break that mass free, when in theory it should have. I'd be willing to bet the remedy early on for my bike may have been this, but I would think this issue is only one that gets worse over time, with the lack of lubrication.

I'm a bit OCD when I have to do things out of the ordinary to make something mechanical work. To me that is a red flag that there is an issue, or something is not working to the design intention. I lived with it for a while, but figured if I could solve the issue for limited money and time, then i would go for it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: WI_Hedgehog
#8 ·
This issue has NOTHING to do with shifting at all. My bike shifted perfectly. Read through the thread, go over to the VTX forums and do some research there too. It's highly documented among many riders; all who know how to shift.
 
#10 · (Edited)
It's happened to me less than half a dozen times, but I sure don't like it. After I start the bike, I pull and release the clutch lever two or three times and that keeps it from grabbing and lunging when I take off. I agree with krash that you shouldn't have to do this or any other little trick, but it's been working for me and as long as it keeps working and keeps me from having to do what he did, I'll live with it.
 
#11 ·
I think I use amsoil 5W-30 in my bike. On a warm morning, when I pull in the clutch and shift down to 1st, I feel the clutch pack suddennly disengage. And the bike lurches only a little bit. But, on a cold morning, there is much less of a lurch and sometimes no lurch at all (just a smooth shift down into 1st from neutral). This is becuase the lower temperature has the oil following the SAE 5 weight curve which has a lower viscosity.
I have also followed Goats advice of holding open the clutch for a bit before shifting down into 1st. This has also helped. My bike's lurching has always been minimal and does not need any fix at this time.
 
#12 ·
Yeah If I could have gotten away with some sort of procedure to remedy the situation I probably would have for the time being. But feeling it, hearing the sound it made, and the fact that it could have put me in an unsafe situation (as well as a bit of my OCD) lead me down this path. Plus the fact that I didn't feel in control. I knew it was going to happen, but I couldn't stop it from happening was frustrating.

I was pretty nervous going into it seeing that I hadn't opened up the transmission before, but with all the reading I had done, I felt it wasn't too bad to undertake. Afternoon of whiskey and taking it slowly. I did it during and oil change, so that helped too. Once I got in the belly, it was all very simple mechanically. Didn't really use the FSM for anything except torques going back together. I figured the cost was minimal if I did it this way (other than a new clutch pack, which you may not even need). Drilling into the hub was just kind of a common sense thing, knowing that you're not locating these holes down to the thousandth of an inch or anything. As well, the hole size wouldn't contribute to any fatigue or yielding situations for the hub. As well, I could reverse it for minimal cost of a new (used) hub as well.

Got about 1k on it this season after the procedure, and still releases as smooth as ever now. No having to worry anymore. I would say if anyone is having the issue, go for it, I'm always around to help out too (through here or phone/text)
 
  • Like
Reactions: WI_Hedgehog
#14 ·
well i finally hit the 24K mileage marker - did the shaft drive fluid replacement, and the clutch fix per the link found earlier in this thread of posts - the clutch fix took me 7 hours total over 2 days Saturday & Sunday - i had it torn down, drilled and back together in 5 hours Saturday - the last two were putting the exhaust back on after fighting the old crush gaskets for 30-45 minutes - finally got them out and news ones in - got the pipes back on and tested her out. The neutral was a tad finicky for the first 10-20 miles but it returned to normal easy to find neutral before i got back home. Time will tell if the lurching is a thing of the past or not.

My factory clutch friction plates were about 1/2 worn out at 24K and the whole clutch assembly did have oil throughout. So the lack of oil theory causing the clutch lock up lurch result does not seem to apply to my situation - perhaps my lurching was caused strictly because i ride in 20F temps.
 
#15 ·
I think the crush gaskets were the hardest thing about the mod for me as well, until I tapped the gasket @ about 3 o'clock with a flatblade screwdriver. this folded the gasket outwards enough to get a pick behind it and fish it out of there!

Did you by chance take any photos of your clutch pack when you took it out, specifically the center plates? I'll be interested to hear how it works for you. I ran with it almost all summer and fall and I had no issues. I even let the clutch out without even letting the bike warm up and engagement was smooth as ever. Summer 2 is coming up.
 
  • Like
Reactions: WI_Hedgehog
#16 ·
The smooth release of these bikes comes from the friction disks/plates initially being separated, and by releasing the clutch lever, the pressure plate engages or comes into contact one plate at a time, then grabbing the next, and so on, so you take off smooth. If it grabs the entire spinning mass, then the bike will jump forward.
As far as I know, the all the plates normally engage simultaneously but gradually as you gradually release the lever holding the pressure plate against the springs.



I wonder if the wear points on the clutch hub 'splines' that the driven steel plate 'teeth' have to slide over are getting hung up a little during engagement and causing the lurching.
When I say 'slide' the movement of each steel disc is very slight, probably less than a thousandth of an inch but enough to notch in and jump out considering the pressure on the teeth as the clutch tries to push over 850 lbs into forward motion.
New parts would probably sit a little differently and possibly not hang up ? Can't see if there were any wear points on the 'fingers' of the basket but the same reasoning might apply there as well.
 
#17 ·
It's technically impossible for all of them in series like that to come in contact at the same time by design...the pressure plate has to apply pressure or contact to the first, it has to slide a small distance and make contact with the second, small distance third, etc etc. This happens quickly though.

Here is a video;

">" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350">

I can personally verify that there were no burrs on my clutch hub even though they were shiny. I ran my fingernail over all of them just to make sure. It was just a polished area. The plates and discs have radiuses on them so as not to allow them digging into the hub. Not sure if I mentioned it in my write-up, but with my bike sitting, when I got in there and removed everything, I had to try REALLY hard to break each disk and plate free when removing. It emphasized that after sitting, they were essentially "frozen" together in one big mass. Hanging on a burr though could cause that issue on the hub, but it wasn't in my personal case.
 
  • Like
Reactions: WI_Hedgehog
#18 · (Edited)
Krash, I watched your video animation and it appears that the clearance between each plate is matched as they all come together at the same time.
The bike doesn't start moving until all the plates are pushed together and teh movement stops. Then it's just a matter of pressure to stop them from slipping.
All wet clutch plates stick together after sitting for a few hours. Since new, if I started in gear, I could free the plates and feel them release their grip by pushing the bike back with the clutch lever pulled in.
Not saying the the wear points are the cause of the uneven engagement, just posing the idea. I'm guessing that something is restricting the movement of the plates allowing pressure to build between the plates prematurely and start moving the bike until the plates snap fully closed causing the lurch forward.
I just don't think lack of oil is the problem other than making them initially stick together. Lots of bikes out there with dry clutches.
If we were dealing with a lack of oil I think the jerking complaint would occur from new. I'd put my money on a mechanical wear issue. With the pressures involved the slightest imperfection could cause the compliant and it may be very difficult to see the problem.
 
#20 ·
That video animation just shows how they work, the concept, but you have to think about what's going on in there. Those plates all ride on a shaft. You are right, in saying that the bike is not going to move until all those plates are sandwiched together and then spin as one unit...but mechanically only one plate can be picked up at a time until they are all picked up. It works the same for a small gap vs a large gap. Imagine if they were an inch apart each...all of the plates are not going to come together at the same time. As the clutch lever is released and the pressure plate drops, it's going to catch the first plate, then as you release more it's going to come into contact with the second plate, third, and so on. With a smaller gap like as designed, it happens so quickly that it may seem like they are all coming together at once, but mechanically that's not possible...it's a moot point regardless.

I imagine you completely read through my other thread. I documented my problem thoroughly an tried every solution to get the clutch pack to break apart...before I would take off. If all of those plates are stuck together as one big spinning mass, vs one plate at a time, when released, that pressure plate is going to grab that entire spinning mass, causing a jump in the bike because the plates are not engaging in a smooth manner.

Either way, my issue has not returned since I opened things up and posted my solution. It was a very common occurrence over on the VTX forums. I'm only a summer into the mod, but it's still working well. This tells me it's not a mechanical issue with the clutch hub.
Only a lot of time will tell if this is the true solution, but it doesn't seem to have come back from the VTX guys that have done the same thing.
 
#21 ·
Krash, I'm not knocking your work and dedication but I'm not drinking the koolaid either.
Besides your mod with the oil holes you installed a new clutch and not a Honda one either so you have no way of telling what fixed your problem.
If you check my profile you'll realize that my comments could be more than just opinion, or not >:)
 
#23 ·
So, I've been following this thread along with krashDH's excellent step-by-step writeup thread on this subject detailing his process. I will preface this with the fact that I know far more about multi-disc dry clutches in high HP applications in automobiles that I do about wet clutches in motorcycles...

The more I think about it, the more I agree that the clutch pack itself as a whole isn't "locked together" beyond the millisecond after (while holding the clutch lever in) the bike is put into gear from neutral. The minute this happens, each friction disc is broken free from it's surrounding floating pressure plates. This is that initial 'lurch' that alot of us see when putting the bike into gear, especially when cold. If the clutch pack stayed stuck together, then the bike would continue forward as if the clutch lever was released....

If, when releasing the clutch lever, the bike jumps forward/lurches/stalls/etc., this is more likely due to difference in friction when dry friction discs come in contact with dry pressure plates. I can see how a typically 'wet' clutch would have greatly varying levels of friction depending on the level and type of 'wet' saturation of the disc. As an example, imagine running barefoot and then leaping onto a linoleum floor with dry feet. Now imagine doing the same thing with a thin layer of water on the floor... hilarity ensues, videos get posted, etc... :) It may only take one or a couple of dry on dry friction disc/floating pressure plates to cause enough immediate friction as to fully 'engage' the clutch even while the sprung pressure plate may not be fully engaged. The subsequent lurch coupled with the rotation of the clutch assembly is enough to typically cause crankcase oil to better coat the previously dry discs/plates (splish splash). For those that have had this happen repeatedly may not be getting those discs wet enough with the lurch and still have some dry on dry contact.

I think what krashDH has done from a mod perspective is enabling those friction discs and floating pressure plates to have better access to the crankcase oil, preventing them from ending up fully/mostly dry and subsequently they exhibit better contact friction levels per the design of being wet clutches.

Probably a good mod for anyone with a Fury to do, as it seems the prevalence of this issue indicates a minor design flaw about flow of oil to all of the friction discs and floating pressure plates.

Cheers!!!
 
  • Like
Reactions: WI_Hedgehog
#29 ·
I don't know if this comes into play here or not, but I was warned that the type of oil used is really important. Something along the lines of don't use car oil or you'll have clutch problems eventually, use Honda motorcycle oil, or another oil specifically formulated for motorcycles. Granted, it could be because they want to sell oil, but perhaps it's also because there's a specific oil formulation for the clutch. Reading the owner's manual, Honda was specific on page 84 that Honda oil doesn't have to be used, but certain "fuel saving" oils cannot be used.

From what I understand, motorcycle oils have elevated ZDDP levels because they don't use friction modifiers due to the possibility of a shared sump, which the fury uses. The Fury owner's manual refers to JASO T 903 standard MA compliant for compatibility with the wet clutch (pg 85). Friction modifiers, depending on what they are, can cause slipping or other issues.

I'll also note 5W-30 refers to the flow characteristics of the oil at cold and operating temperature, not the viscosity. (0W oil is still way too thick when it's cold.)
 
#32 ·
I'll post it again over here in case anyone doesn't want to read through the whole other write up thread, but here's the oil flow path. One thing they don't show is that oil comes out around the pushrod (center of hub):

 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top