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Holy Grail -vs- Dynojet PCV

16K views 107 replies 26 participants last post by  BakoFury 
#1 · (Edited)
...more to come when it warms up around here.
 
#96 · (Edited)
Black is slowest because it absorbs all the photons. Any other colour reflects them to a more or lesser degree, thus making the bikes lighter. The more chrome, the lighter (at least in daylight). And anybody who says that photons don't have any weight is spreading alternative news and should be deported forthwith.:nerd:
 
#66 ·
Alright, I'll scan all the sheets tonight and post it up. I'm surprised at the numbers, so if something fishy is noticed when I post them, I want to know. The torque band is damned near flat until just past 4000 rpm, that seems odd to me (though I've never had a bike dyno'ed before).
 
#71 · (Edited)
I rotated your Dynosheet and reposted the dynosheet from the reflash thread if anyone would like to compare and/or comment.





One thing I noticed is that your HP/TQ drops off immediately after 5000rpm this is because the rev limiter kicked in and that also tells us that the bike was in 4th gear during the Dyno test, which is fine and merely an observation on my part.

It had to be in 4th gear because if it were in 3rd the top speed would have been around 80mph and the rev limiter wouldn't have kicked in until 5250rpm and if it were 5th gear it would have been the same top speed but rev limiter shutting it down at 4800rpm.
 

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#79 ·
I rotated your Dynosheet and reposted the dynosheet from the reflash thread if anyone would like to compare and/or comment.

One thing I noticed is that your HP/TQ drops off immediately after 5000rpm this is because the rev limiter kicked in and that also tells us that the bike was in 4th gear during the Dyno test, which is fine and merely an observation on my part.

It had to be in 4th gear because if it were in 3rd the top speed would have been around 80mph and the rev limiter wouldn't have kicked in until 5250rpm and if it were 5th gear it would have been the same top speed but rev limiter shutting it down at 4800rpm.
Hard to be sure, but the curves look very similar below 5000 rpms. For myself I would not have gone another way. Bottom line for me is I don't want another system trying to lie to the ecu to get it to do things, I won't cut wires. Re-flash is easy peasy. And a good price.
 
#74 ·
Guess I get more and more confused as I see the graph comparisons. I have the Cobra 3 pot set ideally with sweeps and feel that the bike has a lot to offer in this setup and don't feel like it's lacking much. No problems getting up to speed from a dead stop and never need to go over 100.. only hit rev limiter twice in the last 2 years.. would it be fair to say that the reflash owns any other fuel controller with respect to performance gains when it comes to going past 5k rpm? Is that where the real kick in the pants is felt? If so, I'm happy as is and I'd think some others out there probably fall into the same category as me (likes to cruise and accelerate from a stop while being a frugal and thoughtful spender)

But if it's felt from 1k on up thru the whole range then that's a different story.
I again hope someday to see a YouTube video of the reflash in action next to the same Fury setup that's FC and pipes only.
 
#75 · (Edited)
If you look at the reflash Dynochart, the bottom (green) line is with just intake/exhaust and while it isn't fair to say that a fuel controller would follow the same line on the graph it might be close but we don't have a Dynosheet showing what a 3 pot can do.

Perhaps @FuryousNurse will pop in and bless us with a copy of his Dynosheet from his 3 pot controller.

If you look at the chart though you will see that there are gains over the entire rpm range but the most dramatic gains are above 4000rpm where Honda cut 9° of timing to comply with EPA regulations.

To answer your question as fair and honestly as possible... No, I would not say that the reflash owns any other fuel controller when it comes to performance above 5000rpm.

I feel that a properly Dyno tuned PCV with ignition control and rev extend can probably make just as much power as a reflashed ECU.... However

I will say that the setup described above will cost more (dyno/installation costs) and deliver less (NO cooling fan option or true low idle) while being inferior do to the nature of piggyback setups (possible connection/unit failure).

I would love for you to ride a reflashed bike and then you could give us your honest assessment.... Plus that would be way more fun than watching a video... Lol

Isn't there anyone up in your area that has been flashed that would swap bikes with you for a quick ride?
 
#76 · (Edited)
I'm all for the torque on my commute.
I accelerate in 1st until the torque stops (3500 rpm),shift to top gear and look in my mirror at traffic a block back.

I'm for the gas mileage also: if I can go from 50 mpg to 56 that makes less stops to fill up. Practical consideration, not financial.

I want to take it to the drag strip one night and test a stock and re-flashed ecu just to prove the difference in the eighth/quarter mile. Cheaper than a dyno session for me..
 
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#80 ·
Having had the 3 pot, the Autotuner, and the reflash, I can say the reflash offers more through each band alone than either Cobra controller. Then there's the fact of lowering the idle and raising the limited and lowering the fan temp. For the price, I'd pick the reflash over the Autotuner. You always have an option to unflash it back to stock. (Yes, I made that word up.)
 
#86 ·
Here is a re-post of my dyno tuned 3pot BEFORE the reflash.

Somewhere in the "holy grail" post I compared it to the untuned 3pot with flash. The reflash pretty much was higher in T and HP along the rpm range, but MUCH more above 4k rpm.
 
#92 ·
Still in the planning stage.
 
#100 · (Edited)
2 bikes racing each other is completely meaningless without knowing the skill levels of both riders. And even then, the riders should probably swap bikes because I have seen Bike A beat bike B by 4 bike lengths, then switched riders and Bike A beat bike B by 5 bike lengths. Skill plays a LOT more of a factor in drag racing than people like to think, and 95% of people, are NOT GOOD AT IT. I have watched a car that was running 14.0s all day, switch drivers and run a 13.0 I can verify this as truth because it was my car and me driving running the 14.0s and my buddy who ran 2 13.0s immediately after on the same track with no changes to my car. 1 full second in the 1/4 is an eternity and is a gap that with equal drivers would take a MASSIVE horsepower difference to create.




You also can't go by "it feels faster" Because a peaky powerband will feel more powerful than a wide smooth powerband. Even though the peaky powerband makes for a slower vehicle.

Dynos and drag strips with GOOD drivers/riders (good at drag racing, I don't care about a lack of chicken strips, that skill does not apply to drag racing). Merely dropping the clutch and pinning it wide open is not "good", there is a lot more to it.

Also, how much do the riders weigh? What other mods if any are done to the bikes?

Long story short
Bike with PCV beating bike with reflash means absolutely nothing without more info on the riders and preferably switching riders.

I apologize if I missed somewhere that you switched riders and had the same result.
 
#101 ·
Let me just say.....



Please don't take that as a personal attack. I agree with everything you posted, its just that the guy who started this thread is known for shit stirring and I think that is blatantly obvious in this thread as he never produced any evidence so the entire point of this thread was to spread a false narrative.


This thread is FAKE NEWS... Quick someone call the Clinton News Network and give them the scoop.... Lol

Also talking about power always makes me think of this pic which I love since I drive a large car like these...

 

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#102 ·
Well not to bring back a dead thread again but..

I went with the PC5 FOR NOW.

I had the opportunity to get one for a LOT cheaper than the reflash, I had the money now, and it would be a month or two till I have the funds for the reflash (and I am an instant gratification kind of guy), and its the PC5 that controls timing, which to me, it seemed like only handling fuel and not touching timing was going to leave a lot of power on the table. So I grabbed it. Should be here maybe today or tomorrow.

So I will be able to do a back to back comparison on my own bike soon enough.

For now, I am PUMPED to get the PC5, because while maybe the reflash is way better (according to some members, others seem to think the PC5 is better), the PC5 should be worlds better than stock.
 
#103 · (Edited)
NOTE: These numbers are Rear-Wheel (after all losses), not Crankshaft (before additional losses). When comparing "factory" numbers to these you need actual rear-wheel dyno numbers.

KennyDeadGuy: Stock (intake, exhaust mods only): 71 ft*lbs (56 HP)
Maximum Fuel Economy: 50 MPG

FuriousNurse: Cobra 3-pot: 74 ft*lbs (56 HP)

KennyDeadGuy: Guhl ECU Tune: 76 ft*lbs (64 HP)
Duals with ECU flash: 75 ft*lbs (64 HP)
2 into 1 with ECU flash: 76 ft*lbs (68 HP)
Maximum Fuel Economy: 50 to 52 MPG

BakoFury: Power Commander 5: 78 ft*lbs (63 HP)

AJ_SuperFuel: Power Commander 5: 86 ft*lbs (68 HP)
Spike intake, Cobra Swept exhaust.
Maximum Fuel Economy: 42 to 45 MPG
Note: The smell of unburnt hydrocarbons hits right after pushing the boom button, this setup is bordering on swamp fogger.


FOR COMPARISON:
2015 XL1200 Sportster Twin Cam: 104 HP, 83 ft*lbs (rear wheel)
Bolt-on 1250 Kit with 30 Degree Reverse Dome Pistons
IMPACT Head Porting Service on the original 1200 heads
IMPACT 560 Cams
Air Hammer Air Cleaner (CRUSH model)
Patriot Defender Exhaust System
Tuned with DirectLink by Canton Cycle


Having the excellent fortune of driving a stock Fury, Kenny's ECU tune on a bike specifically set up for it, and AJ's PC-5 on a bike also set up for it, I observed the following:
  • Stock is great! Very smooth throttle, though the power noticeably falls off toward the upper RPM range. Fuel economy is awesome.
  • Kenny & Don's ECU tune has super-smooth throttle response, the engine runs smoother and has noticeably more power (slightly lacking in the upper end), no RPM limit, marginally better fuel economy, lower RPM and lower cooling fan on/off.
  • PC-5 SuperFuel tune has "too much power" pretty much everywhere except the upper end (where the power is really good), is tricky to drive (due to having "too much power"), and burns fuel like it's connected to OPEC.
I haven't driven any of the other PC-5 maps, but am betting if the "fuel dumping" was more conservative on the low RPM end and stayed rich on the high RPM end it would be the best of both worlds. If the opportunity arises in the future I'll tear into the fuel map and find out what's going on with it.














 

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#106 ·
Dynos are calibrated, the resulting numbers are expected to be reasonably accurate (within a margin of error). Same with torque wrenches, they get close, within reason.

The type of dyno, temperature, pressure, humidity, fuel, engine oil, different engines, etc. all play a part in skewing the numbers. Fact remains a Gumpert Apollo makes bigger numbers than the Vauxhall Viva, for good reason, regardless of the dyno.

If dyno numbers didn't matter, manufacturers wouldn't publish them.


 
#107 ·
PC-5 SuperFuel tune has "too much power" pretty much everywhere except the upper end (where the power is really good), is tricky to drive (due to having "too much power"), and burns fuel like it's connected to OPEC.
Wish we had the "too much power" option with the Guhl tune.. id love to be able to wrap the throttle and do burnouts at will, that would be fun :)
 
#108 ·
I did the Furball map on mine, if anyone remembers, and it put out more horses than what I dynoed above, but it melted a cover. I scaled it back, dropped 10-15 degrees at the offending location, and still seem to be running alright, though honestly now it feels about the same as what I used to have (but now with a lowered idle and another 1250 RPMs at the top to abuse).

Next step for me is to make individual maps by gear, at least zero at the 5th gear to try and improve my mileage. I honestly will never take this bike over 100 mph. o_O
 
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