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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ok guys, so this is something unlike anything I've ever dealt with. I ran sports for 12 years, and ran into some pretty weird situations, but I ain't never seen a bike do this before:
(Scroll down to the hash mark for the Short n' Sweet)

For those interested in the "dramatic flair":
I work nights, and last Wednesday night/ Thursday morning, at ~3:00am, on a 2-lane highway in Texas, between a small town and a big city, with no street lights, no moon or stars, and no traffic; I was on my way home and I was nearly there with only 5 miles to go. I was going probably ~70mph, thinking about poppin' open a Dos XX and starting my weekend early. So I'm cruisin' along, doing 70/75/80 through a corner when I lose EVERYTHING!!!!

No lights!! No headlight, no gauge cluster, no turn signals or running lights, and even my body light kit (hooked directly to the battery with just a simple switch and fuse between them) go DARK, and the night swept over me like Death's cloak welcoming me to the veil. I felt as though i were 6 years old again, and my flashlight had fizzled out just as the closet door creaked open.

In the few crucial milliseconds it took to occur, I felt the power lag out, looked down, and saw my "check engine" idiot light flash with such ferocity you'd wonder if the bike was suffering a stroke and trying to warn me in its final, dying breath. The engine stalled repeatedly as the physics of the engine tried desperately to turn the engine back over via the friction from the clutch, but even that ceased in operation before I could bring Ol' Silver safely to a halt.

I lost the white stripes but instead found the rumble strip... Only to realize the shoulder was covered in loose gravel from the recent resurfacing of the highway. The handlebars juttered in my hands violently as I tried to maintain stability, only to feel the weight of my world fall from my shoulders and land squarely on my leg as the front tire loved the grass so intently, freshly slicked with morning dew, that my Pride and Joy must have felt that I needed to love it too.

I laid there, agonizing over my poor leg as I realized my foot was not facing the same direction as the rest of my body. I squirmed until I found comfort in straddling the handlebars like a cheap hooker. The Sheriff arrived 30min later. Still pinned beneath the slain beast he asks that ever defeating question.... "You stuck?".
...*exasperated sigh*...
"Nope. Just out here sunbathin'... in full gear... At night... On a dark highway... Under a motorcycle...."
The deputy found my sarcasm none too enjoyable.

As he helped me out from under my fallen horse, I noticed something emblazoned by the effervescent glow of his 1.21 Gigawatt light bar. I had landed just short of a large, heavy gauge steel pole holding a rather sharp street sign. My heart quickened with an onset of fear and anxiety at the revelation that had I been traveling any faster, I would have likely impaled myself upon it. Although that feeling quickly subsided as I realized it would be irrelevant to focus on things that COULD have happened, but didn't.

After getting the bike back vertical, I tried to cycle the key but the bike refused to respond. I left the key engaged, but expected nothing of it. After speaking with the deputy for a brief moment, it caught me off guard as the electronics came back to life. I attempted to start it once more, but the beast fell silent as the final curtain drew closed, and the last spark of life drained from its gauge cluster.

The towing company then made a bad day worse by charging me 150$ to tow me 5mi. And to add insult to LITERAL injury, their shop is less than a tenth of a mile from my house.

------------------------------------------

So to recap:
I lost the entire electrical system at 3am on a dark road doing 75mph, and wrecked my baby bc I could no longer see the road.
Also, side note, captured the whole thing on my trusty GoPro Hero 5 Session... YouTube millions, here I come!
Lost my headlights, gauges, running lights, and body light kit.

Battery sits on a battery tender, and is *supposedly* (according to the dealership) a new battery.
Battery tender always showed green.
Sometimes the bike would hesitate to start.
Checked battery: Good, 12.9vDC when running, 12.2 when ignition off
Dealership performed load test and stated battery is operating nominally
Checked cables: Good, tight, no corrosion
Checked starter: Good, no flat spots or hang ups, starts flawlessly on fresh battery charge
Checked amp draw: ... Bad??? Bike shows 2.4 amps draw with ignition off
Disconnected LEDs: no effect
Disconnected batt tender loom: no effect
Disconnected bike harness: amp draw gone
** Bike also shows dip from 12.2vDC to 9.4vDC during cranking w/hesitation
However, once the bike starts, and is warm, it will crank without hesitation EVERY TIME, as though nothing is wrong. Yet, occasionally after driving for >1.5hrs, it has a small chance of not wanting to wake back up after turning it off.
*** Also, during hesitation starts; the headlights, gauges, AND body lights (again, hooked up separately from the ignition system) would drop out until the bike turned over; but would also sometimes reset my A/B trip meters and the clock to 00:00. Odometer was unaffected.

I have NOT checked the alternator/stator yet. Recently found article in owner's / service manual on that.

Also, was curious if it could be the regulator/rectifier.
Had my 2006 r6 short out its Reg/Rect, but it threw a code and refused to start.

Final note: after the accident, the deputy and I got the bike back up, and I cycled the key a few times, but got no response. After a short period of time (1-3min) the electronics came back to life after accidentally leaving the key engaged in the ignition, but upon trying to start it, it died and didn't even try to turn the starter.
 

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Sorry to hear about what happened. On the up side you're alive, mostly healthy, and a good writer...

It could be an intermittent connection or the battery "dropping a plate" (having one of the internal plates not making good connection).

The dip in the battery voltage (and resulting brown-out) is normal, the batteries and starter are [in my opinion] too small for the bike. Some people switched to lithium batteries to remedy the problem ("hot start issue").

Not starting when cold but starting when warm hints at a battery problem, but it's just a hint, and the random "not wanting to start when hot" could be due to compression lock which is a mostly normal situation on a bike with small starter & battery.

The parasitic 2.4A draw is a problem--that'll kill any battery.

There could be a regulator/rectifier issue, just because you find one problem doesn't mean there aren't others contributing to the issue at the same time.



 

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Sorry to hear about what happened. On the up side you're alive, mostly healthy, and a good writer...

It could be an intermittent connection or the battery "dropping a plate" (having one of the internal plates not making good connection).





I agree, the battery is probably broken inside with intermittent connection.

Save your self a lot of trouble and get or borrow a new one to confirm.

Good luck.

 

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Ok guys, so this is something unlike anything I've ever dealt with. I ran sports for 12 years, and ran into some pretty weird situations, but I ain't never seen a bike do this before:
(Scroll down to the hash mark for the Short n' Sweet)

For those interested in the "dramatic flair":
I work nights, and last Wednesday night/ Thursday morning, at ~3:00am, on a 2-lane highway in Texas, between a small town and a big city, with no street lights, no moon or stars, and no traffic; I was on my way home and I was nearly there with only 5 miles to go. I was going probably ~70mph, thinking about poppin' open a Dos XX and starting my weekend early. So I'm cruisin' along, doing 70/75/80 through a corner when I lose EVERYTHING!!!!

No lights!! No headlight, no gauge cluster, no turn signals or running lights, and even my body light kit (hooked directly to the battery with just a simple switch and fuse between them) go DARK, and the night swept over me like Death's cloak welcoming me to the veil. I felt as though i were 6 years old again, and my flashlight had fizzled out just as the closet door creaked open.

In the few crucial milliseconds it took to occur, I felt the power lag out, looked down, and saw my "check engine" idiot light flash with such ferocity you'd wonder if the bike was suffering a stroke and trying to warn me in its final, dying breath. The engine stalled repeatedly as the physics of the engine tried desperately to turn the engine back over via the friction from the clutch, but even that ceased in operation before I could bring Ol' Silver safely to a halt.

I lost the white stripes but instead found the rumble strip... Only to realize the shoulder was covered in loose gravel from the recent resurfacing of the highway. The handlebars juttered in my hands violently as I tried to maintain stability, only to feel the weight of my world fall from my shoulders and land squarely on my leg as the front tire loved the grass so intently, freshly slicked with morning dew, that my Pride and Joy must have felt that I needed to love it too.

I laid there, agonizing over my poor leg as I realized my foot was not facing the same direction as the rest of my body. I squirmed until I found comfort in straddling the handlebars like a cheap hooker. The Sheriff arrived 30min later. Still pinned beneath the slain beast he asks that ever defeating question.... "You stuck?".
...*exasperated sigh*...
"Nope. Just out here sunbathin'... in full gear... At night... On a dark highway... Under a motorcycle...."
The deputy found my sarcasm none too enjoyable.

As he helped me out from under my fallen horse, I noticed something emblazoned by the effervescent glow of his 1.21 Gigawatt light bar. I had landed just short of a large, heavy gauge steel pole holding a rather sharp street sign. My heart quickened with an onset of fear and anxiety at the revelation that had I been traveling any faster, I would have likely impaled myself upon it. Although that feeling quickly subsided as I realized it would be irrelevant to focus on things that COULD have happened, but didn't.

After getting the bike back vertical, I tried to cycle the key but the bike refused to respond. I left the key engaged, but expected nothing of it. After speaking with the deputy for a brief moment, it caught me off guard as the electronics came back to life. I attempted to start it once more, but the beast fell silent as the final curtain drew closed, and the last spark of life drained from its gauge cluster.

The towing company then made a bad day worse by charging me 150$ to tow me 5mi. And to add insult to LITERAL injury, their shop is less than a tenth of a mile from my house.

------------------------------------------

So to recap:
I lost the entire electrical system at 3am on a dark road doing 75mph, and wrecked my baby bc I could no longer see the road.
Also, side note, captured the whole thing on my trusty GoPro Hero 5 Session... YouTube millions, here I come!
Lost my headlights, gauges, running lights, and body light kit.

Battery sits on a battery tender, and is *supposedly* (according to the dealership) a new battery.
Battery tender always showed green.
Sometimes the bike would hesitate to start.
Checked battery: Good, 12.9vDC when running, 12.2 when ignition off
Dealership performed load test and stated battery is operating nominally
Checked cables: Good, tight, no corrosion
Checked starter: Good, no flat spots or hang ups, starts flawlessly on fresh battery charge
Checked amp draw: ... Bad??? Bike shows 2.4 amps draw with ignition off
Disconnected LEDs: no effect
Disconnected batt tender loom: no effect
Disconnected bike harness: amp draw gone
** Bike also shows dip from 12.2vDC to 9.4vDC during cranking w/hesitation
However, once the bike starts, and is warm, it will crank without hesitation EVERY TIME, as though nothing is wrong. Yet, occasionally after driving for >1.5hrs, it has a small chance of not wanting to wake back up after turning it off.
*** Also, during hesitation starts; the headlights, gauges, AND body lights (again, hooked up separately from the ignition system) would drop out until the bike turned over; but would also sometimes reset my A/B trip meters and the clock to 00:00. Odometer was unaffected.

I have NOT checked the alternator/stator yet. Recently found article in owner's / service manual on that.

Also, was curious if it could be the regulator/rectifier.
Had my 2006 r6 short out its Reg/Rect, but it threw a code and refused to start.

Final note: after the accident, the deputy and I got the bike back up, and I cycled the key a few times, but got no response. After a short period of time (1-3min) the electronics came back to life after accidentally leaving the key engaged in the ignition, but upon trying to start it, it died and didn't even try to turn the starter.

Definitely try the easy stuff first but your symptoms (aside from going down) seem pretty similar to what mine did. Dealer diagnosed as Rectifier / Regulator but turned out to be stator. However, every test should be completed with a known good battery. Start with that.

Good luck and glad you're intact!
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
@Hedgehog,

Battery - dealership performed a load test and determined the battery was in good health, although, that doesn't mean they weren't either lying, or an imbecile.

"...the batteries and starter are [in my opinion] too small for the bike." - I am very curious to know more about this, however, I'm pretty sure my current battery tender (a Genius 750) would not be compatible as I believe it is more meant for lead-acid devices. But i would like to know what lithium (size/type/CCA) battery i would need to serve as a suitable replacement in its stead. And if it might be worth rebuilding the starter internals.

Compression lock - this could certainly be a possibility, however, I have it in my head that by attempting a rolling start, this would force the compression lock to release and resume normal operation; although I am not well-versed on engine physics, and could inadvertently be speaking out of my a*s right now. If so, I apologize.

Reg/Rect - It could definitely be the reg/rect causing an issue; which, as previously mentioned, I've dealt with a defective one the hard way with an r6 before. Certainly worth checking out.

Alternator/Stator - I'm curious if it might could be the stator assy. I read an article where the stator (strangely listed as an alternator by Honda) had grounded out and was causing similar but different issues with someone else's Fury.

Thank you to everyone for your input and condolences. The Silver Surfer shall ride again, but not until i go through her with a fine tooth comb and rip out every da*ned tangle under the hood... and may even get a PCIIIr to open up that annoying 100 mph glass ceiling.
 

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Well, if the battery has an intermittent fault, it could have been good when tested. Intermittent faults are the hardest to track down. On a motorcycle, specially the Fury, vibration can be the trigger for a fault of this type. I personally don't think the starter is undersized, but the battery may be. The problem is compounded by how manufacturers supply batteries to vehicles. A few people have worked on the starters and upgraded the battery as a solution to the 'hot start' issue. I replaced my battery simply because the stock one failed. The replacement LiFeP04 is not cheap, but in my opinion it is worth every penny. Here is a thread on it thanks to @Kbuskill => https://www.furyforums.com/forum/fury-tech-performance-chat/66401-earthx-battery-review.html

I have not experienced compression lock on my Fury, but yes, a roll start would fix this.

Reg/Rectifier - @Spud has a far more current and relevant comment here.

The Fury does not have a stand alone alternator, but hell I guess Honda can call it what they want. If in doubt, it should be tested yes. I am not positive, but I bet the shop manual has the required tests. Here is a web based hosting of the manual here thanks to @Night Fury => https://www.furyforums.com/forum/fury-tech-performance-chat/13175-repair-manual-uploaded-link.html

Good luck. Oh and for fuel management, I would skip the add-on fuel manager and go with an ECU reflash. In fact I did exactly that, and couldn't be happier. Here => https://www.furyforums.com/forum/fu...t/67354-holy-grail-ecu-reflash-condensed.html
 

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The load test should have been done at about 250A, and if it passed at that current flow then *chances are* the internal connections are fine. If I remember correctly, when I was checking how well of a job the BatteryMINDer 128CEC1 Battery Charger was doing of recovering the battery I tested the battery at 400A for 15s and it was fine.
SOLAR 1874 500 Amp Carbon Pile Battery Load Tester

The small starter / small battery issue explained.

Lithium Battery that fits the Fury

For the hot start issue, use Tools - Advanced Search:
Keyword(s): Hot Start
Show results as: Threads
The two ways of unlocking the 100 MPH limit that are most popular are the Power Commander and Ken's Holy Grail. There are a bunch of people in each camp, both have their own reasons.
 

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Due to our batteries being just adequate and the fact that I ride to work most days I have installed a bluetooth battery monitor to see what my battery is really doing. You can read more here https://www.furyforums.com/forum/fu...y-really-doing-bluetooth-battery-monitor.html

My battery is about 8 months old and it's in good shape, so here are some real world figures I captured from my bike yesterday.You can see the battery is not as good as we imagined when cranking the engine. I'm sure @WI_Hedgehog, @Kbuskill and @Señor Gar will find this interesting.





 

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Due to our batteries being just adequate and the fact that I ride to work most days I have installed a bluetooth battery monitor to see what my battery is really doing. You can read more here https://www.furyforums.com/forum/fu...y-really-doing-bluetooth-battery-monitor.html

My battery is about 8 months old and it's in good shape, so here are some real world figures I captured from my bike yesterday.You can see the battery is not as good as we imagined when cranking the engine. I'm sure @WI_Hedgehog, @Kbuskill and @Señor Gar will find this interesting.





Should've bought an EarthX...:wink:

Just out of curiosity... Was that a cold start or a hot start that produced the low cranking voltage???
 

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Should've bought an EarthX...:wink:

Just out of curiosity... Was that a cold start or a hot start that produced the low cranking voltage???
This was a cold start and the bike fired right up. I have noticed that my bike always seems to dip to 8.1 to 8.5 volts on start. I don't think it's as bad as it looks because the dip is less than one second and it climbs up to around 14 volts before settling back to 13 volts. It's possible that you would not see the dip if you used a multimeter but as the bike starts up I have not looked further. I guess I should one of these days.

Sadly the EarthX is crazy money by the time you get it to Oz, however I found the battery below on ebay AU for AU $140 plus $15 postage. It's claimed to be 330 CCA which is better than the AGM that I have now.

 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Issue Found, ...Maybe resolved???

So, at the beginning of this post, i mentioned my tale of woe with my bike biting the dust at high speed at night due to an electrical failure. And while there have been MANY good theories... oddly enough, (according to the shop's lead mechanic) we were all wrong!!! *GASP!* Eek gads, Batman!

According to the shop's master mechanic, the stator and regulator/rectifier are "in perfect health and functioning nominally," and the negative battery cable is what caused the battery to fail, ultimately leading to my untimely "impact with a stationary object" (according to the insurance company) :rolleyes: .... i hit the ground, guys. Okay? Lol. He showed me the cable was practically a single, solid piece of what might have been copper, as all of the individual fibers had "welded" together and had little-to-no play in the cable. He replaced the cable with a factory equivalent, and said the charging system tested good. I asked him how that would shut everything down, to which he replied that the factory OEM battery is an AGM lead acid, and, while sealed, is not designed to be mounted at an angle greater than parallel with the Earth for any extended duration of time, which ours is. He continued that all of the lead acid fluid would collect towards the bottom of the battery and leave the top-most cell nearly or completely dry, causing that cell to die in the process; thus, shortening the overall life of the battery. This then caused the low amp draws, the low CCA's, and strange voltage readings. I also asked him regarding the strange low amp draw, and he said he would do some more testing and get back to me on it.

While i'm inclined to believe he believes his assessment, i remain partially skeptical. What caused those wires to suddenly (or hell, even slowly) "weld" themselves together? How is the charging system okay after cranking out enough amperage to WELD several thousands of strands into a solid piece of wire? Will it do it again? Why put an OEM equivalent back in it if that is what got fried in the first place and "caused" the issue??? I asked if a leftover length of ought-gauge Oxygen Free Copper (OFC) wire from my subwoofer install would suffice? He said it would be overkill... :serious: ... He clearly doesn't know me very well....

I mean, you could have just told me the dealership sold me a bike with a sh*tty Ford Motorcraft Lawn & Garden battery, and I probably wouldn't have as many questions as i do now.

So, as recommended, I purchased an EarthX model ETX24C.... Holy cow, talk about LIGHT! Not Bud Light, just regular light. But, D*MN! My .50 cal AR weighs less than the stock 13 lbs battery! This made me think I bought a $250 empty shell and the rest of the internals got lost in the mail. Lol. (They didn't; that was a joke. But it is VERY light.)

I did do a little bit of (Bud) light researching on this battery before reaching a determination on it, but all in all, i think i will be happy with it, once i get my bike back. Also, the battery doesn't give two flyin' FOX if you mount it up, side, or down ways. Some notes, though, for those also interested in the EarthX lithium battery:

I got this idea as result of the combined efforts of Kbuskill & WI Hedgehog. ** GREAT guys, btw!! VERY knowledgeable. ** While reading into it, it seemed spectacular and, honestly, kinda along the "too good..." lines. Good news?? The battery is as "mostly" advertised; and Kbuskill's assessment is particularly particular about it; so much so that i glazed over it without intending to, and didn't catch it until i went back to confirm what i had read.... I was wrong.

To paraphrase:
03-07-2015, 09:08 AM
It also has its own built in BMS (battery management system) so there is no special charger needed as with other LiFePO4 batteries. You can maintain it off of any lead acid battery maintainer as long as it doesn't have a desulfation mode. But in reality if you are riding on a somewhat regular basis there is no need for a maintainer because with the built in BMS it self regulates the charge from the bikes alternator and balances all the cells within the battery. And if you are storing the bike for the winter just disconnect the battery from the bike as these batteries don't have the high self discharge rate like lead acid batteries do. The company claims a 10% voltage loss over a 1 year period when there is no parasitic drain (such as our clock on our bikes) so on a fully charged battery (13.4v) you would only lose 1.34 volts in a year so you would still have 12 volts when you go to start the bike a year later.
Yes.... but there's the hitch. And, quite frankly, what I'm about to say will probably only apply to like 0.001% of any rider who uses an EarthX battery. But for those of us like myself, who often find themselves screwed sideways by the universe without any KY or even a "thank you", there's this:

Maybe as part of an updated product page (Kbuskill's post is over 3 years old now), they do not recommend using a standard charger, but if you ABSOLUTELY MUST, as like part of a last ditch effort, have to use a standard battery charger, do NOT use one with a de-sulfate mode. Which IS mentioned by Kbuskill, ...so don't bash me over the head just yet. This isn't a shakedown or a bash on him or the EarthX. Lol. Hell, I just said I bought one and was happy with it. :p

From the EarthX site:
https://earthxbatteries.com/our-batteries/battery-charging
"In the event you have to charge the battery, use a Lithium (LiFePO4) battery charger or a lead-acid battery charger that does not charge above 14.6V, will automatically turns off when the battery is fully charged (based on volts) and does not have a de-sulfate mode. Do not use any charger with voltage that pulses above 15V! This will damage the battery. If in doubt, consult the manual that comes with your charger." ... "For chargers with a maintenance mode, the maintenance mode voltage should be 13.3V – 13.9V....a maintenance mode voltage of 13.2V which is too low for a lithium battery."

Additionally, "The EarthX over-discharge protection circuit is automatically reset when a charging current/voltage is present at the battery terminals (referred to as BMS Reset). Or if you have an EarthX battery manufactured after 2017, simply disconnect the negative terminal from the vehicle and it will reset itself and then you put it on a charger. (On the backside of the negative terminal there is a letter and a number, if this number is a 7 or higher, you have this feature built in)".

But this comes with a small caveat: unless the charger is designed with lithiums in mind, it will not reset the Battery Management System (BMS), as traditional chargers require voltage to be present at the terminal in order to initiate charging, and you will be left wondering how your very expensive lithium battery is now deader than a door nail. ... ... don't worry; it's not. As mentioned, the newer 2017+ models only require you to disconnect the negative terminal, and you're reset. If you have a pre-2017 model, you will need a charger with a BMS reset feature or a jump-pack (sold at most auto stores) to 'trick' the battery into thinking it has 12vDC, which MIGHT bring it out of "Safe Mode". (huzzah! Lithium 'smart' batteries! Now bringing Windows compatibility issues to your most basic hardware. LMAO!)

BUTT!!!! And it's a BIG butt... Fret not, for there is actually a list of Yes/No chargers on their site (posted above), and they even recommend Lithium specific chargers for their batteries; which may actually not be bad investment, as most higher-end systems are moving towards lithium, so, eventually your Kia will too.

Basically, your charger must adhere to the following:
- No less than 13.3vDC, 13.2 is too low.
- Not to exceed 14.6vDC
- No de-sulfate mode
- DOES have a BMS "Safe Mode" reset feature
- If you're using a cheap-o charger that you bought from Harbor Freight, you're wrong.
- If it pulses above 15vDC, you might as well have built a bomb....
- And thank God it wasn't built by Samsung, or you might as well be sitting on one.

In closing, I didn't mean to step on anyone's toes. Most of my personality is enshrouded in satire, sarcasm, and cynicism. Kbuskill and WI Hedgehog (along with several others on this forum not mentioned) really are great guys and have helped me learn a lot about my bike, and are very knowledgeable in general. This was neither an attack on them or the battery, just for you to know what else you're getting into when you make the switch from Lead to Lithium. It isn't a daunting task, even though sometimes getting away from OEM can seem that way; especially when it comes to compatibility, conformity, and aesthetics. I made the switch, probably earlier than I was expecting to, but switching to Lithium basically became a no-brainer when the traditional battery failed me.
 

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So, at the beginning of this post, i mentioned my tale of woe with my bike biting the dust at high speed at night due to an electrical failure. And while there have been MANY good theories... oddly enough, (according to the shop's lead mechanic) we were all wrong!!! *GASP!* Eek gads, Batman!

According to the shop's master mechanic, the stator and regulator/rectifier are "in perfect health and functioning nominally," and the negative battery cable is what caused the battery to fail, ultimately leading to my untimely "impact with a stationary object" (according to the insurance company) :rolleyes: .... i hit the ground, guys. Okay? Lol. He showed me the cable was practically a single, solid piece of what might have been copper, as all of the individual fibers had "welded" together and had little-to-no play in the cable. He replaced the cable with a factory equivalent, and said the charging system tested good. I asked him how that would shut everything down, to which he replied that the factory OEM battery is an AGM lead acid, and, while sealed, is not designed to be mounted at an angle greater than parallel with the Earth for any extended duration of time, which ours is. He continued that all of the lead acid fluid would collect towards the bottom of the battery and leave the top-most cell nearly or completely dry, causing that cell to die in the process; thus, shortening the overall life of the battery. This then caused the low amp draws, the low CCA's, and strange voltage readings. I also asked him regarding the strange low amp draw, and he said he would do some more testing and get back to me on it.

While i'm inclined to believe he believes his assessment, i remain partially skeptical. What caused those wires to suddenly (or hell, even slowly) "weld" themselves together? How is the charging system okay after cranking out enough amperage to WELD several thousands of strands into a solid piece of wire? Will it do it again? Why put an OEM equivalent back in it if that is what got fried in the first place and "caused" the issue??? I asked if a leftover length of ought-gauge Oxygen Free Copper (OFC) wire from my subwoofer install would suffice? He said it would be overkill... :serious: ... He clearly doesn't know me very well....

I mean, you could have just told me the dealership sold me a bike with a sh*tty Ford Motorcraft Lawn & Garden battery, and I probably wouldn't have as many questions as i do now.

So, as recommended, I purchased an EarthX model ETX24C.... Holy cow, talk about LIGHT! Not Bud Light, just regular light. But, D*MN! My .50 cal AR weighs less than the stock 13 lbs battery! This made me think I bought a $250 empty shell and the rest of the internals got lost in the mail. Lol. (They didn't; that was a joke. But it is VERY light.)

I did do a little bit of (Bud) light researching on this battery before reaching a determination on it, but all in all, i think i will be happy with it, once i get my bike back. Also, the battery doesn't give two flyin' FOX if you mount it up, side, or down ways. Some notes, though, for those also interested in the EarthX lithium battery:

I got this idea as result of the combined efforts of Kbuskill & WI Hedgehog. ** GREAT guys, btw!! VERY knowledgeable. ** While reading into it, it seemed spectacular and, honestly, kinda along the "too good..." lines. Good news?? The battery is as "mostly" advertised; and Kbuskill's assessment is particularly particular about it; so much so that i glazed over it without intending to, and didn't catch it until i went back to confirm what i had read.... I was wrong.

To paraphrase:
03-07-2015, 09:08 AM


Yes.... but there's the hitch. And, quite frankly, what I'm about to say will probably only apply to like 0.001% of any rider who uses an EarthX battery. But for those of us like myself, who often find themselves screwed sideways by the universe without any KY or even a "thank you", there's this:

Maybe as part of an updated product page (Kbuskill's post is over 3 years old now), they do not recommend using a standard charger, but if you ABSOLUTELY MUST, as like part of a last ditch effort, have to use a standard battery charger, do NOT use one with a de-sulfate mode. Which IS mentioned by Kbuskill, ...so don't bash me over the head just yet. This isn't a shakedown or a bash on him or the EarthX. Lol. Hell, I just said I bought one and was happy with it. :p

From the EarthX site:
https://earthxbatteries.com/our-batteries/battery-charging
"In the event you have to charge the battery, use a Lithium (LiFePO4) battery charger or a lead-acid battery charger that does not charge above 14.6V, will automatically turns off when the battery is fully charged (based on volts) and does not have a de-sulfate mode. Do not use any charger with voltage that pulses above 15V! This will damage the battery. If in doubt, consult the manual that comes with your charger." ... "For chargers with a maintenance mode, the maintenance mode voltage should be 13.3V – 13.9V....a maintenance mode voltage of 13.2V which is too low for a lithium battery."

Additionally, "The EarthX over-discharge protection circuit is automatically reset when a charging current/voltage is present at the battery terminals (referred to as BMS Reset). Or if you have an EarthX battery manufactured after 2017, simply disconnect the negative terminal from the vehicle and it will reset itself and then you put it on a charger. (On the backside of the negative terminal there is a letter and a number, if this number is a 7 or higher, you have this feature built in)".

But this comes with a small caveat: unless the charger is designed with lithiums in mind, it will not reset the Battery Management System (BMS), as traditional chargers require voltage to be present at the terminal in order to initiate charging, and you will be left wondering how your very expensive lithium battery is now deader than a door nail. ... ... don't worry; it's not. As mentioned, the newer 2017+ models only require you to disconnect the negative terminal, and you're reset. If you have a pre-2017 model, you will need a charger with a BMS reset feature or a jump-pack (sold at most auto stores) to 'trick' the battery into thinking it has 12vDC, which MIGHT bring it out of "Safe Mode". (huzzah! Lithium 'smart' batteries! Now bringing Windows compatibility issues to your most basic hardware. LMAO!)

BUTT!!!! And it's a BIG butt... Fret not, for there is actually a list of Yes/No chargers on their site (posted above), and they even recommend Lithium specific chargers for their batteries; which may actually not be bad investment, as most higher-end systems are moving towards lithium, so, eventually your Kia will too.

Basically, your charger must adhere to the following:
- No less than 13.3vDC, 13.2 is too low.
- Not to exceed 14.6vDC
- No de-sulfate mode
- DOES have a BMS "Safe Mode" reset feature
- If you're using a cheap-o charger that you bought from Harbor Freight, you're wrong.
- If it pulses above 15vDC, you might as well have built a bomb....
- And thank God it wasn't built by Samsung, or you might as well be sitting on one.

In closing, I didn't mean to step on anyone's toes. Most of my personality is enshrouded in satire, sarcasm, and cynicism. Kbuskill and WI Hedgehog (along with several others on this forum not mentioned) really are great guys and have helped me learn a lot about my bike, and are very knowledgeable in general. This was neither an attack on them or the battery, just for you to know what else you're getting into when you make the switch from Lead to Lithium. It isn't a daunting task, even though sometimes getting away from OEM can seem that way; especially when it comes to compatibility, conformity, and aesthetics. I made the switch, probably earlier than I was expecting to, but switching to Lithium basically became a no-brainer when the traditional battery failed me.
Your "master mechanic" is kinda misleading you. You can mount an AGM battery laying completely on it's side with zero ill effects. A traditional lead acid on the other hand you cannot and at that point his statement rings true.

I would be more inclined to believe the negative battery cable was loose which caused it to overheat from the current draw at start up OR the cable was corroded internally.

On the stepping on toes remarks.... no worries, they have obviously changed a few things on their site since I posted that, and it sounds like on their batteries as well. Also thanks for the kind words, especially about Brad @WI_Hedgehog , he needs 'em... lol

I will note that I purchased and installed the ETX36C in my Fury which is the next size up from the ETX24C. It was perhaps overkill but I never wanted to deal with the "hot start" issue again.

I did purchase and install the ETX24C in my wife's VT1100 Sabre and it also performed flawlessly, although she never had any hot start issues.

I am glad you were able to track down the issue and I'm sure you will be happy with your new LifePo4 battery.:toast:
 

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@Kbuskill, so would you recommend me swapping out the "OEM equivalent" cable for the OFC ought-gauge subwoofer amp cable? I mean, the fibers are so fine it'd make a frog jealous, and the only "copper" coloring is on the ends after they've been exposed to open air for a very extended period of time. It might be overkill, but I think it'd handle the amperage a little better. Or is the "equivalent" acceptable?
 

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@Kbuskill, so would you recommend me swapping out the "OEM equivalent" cable for the OFC ought-gauge subwoofer amp cable? I mean, the fibers are so fine it'd make a frog jealous, and the only "copper" coloring is on the ends after they've been exposed to open air for a very extended period of time. It might be overkill, but I think it'd handle the amperage a little better. Or is the "equivalent" acceptable?
I am always a fan of upgrading whenever you can. With that being said, 0 gauge is probably a bit much. I know amp leads are very flexible but that doesn't change the diameter of the wire so it can still be difficult to install.

I upgraded the power cable from the starter solenoid to the starter with 4 gauge amplifier wire ,before finding the EarthX battery, in my quest to "fix" the elusive hot start issue. I also wrapped my starter motor with a foil backed fiberglass heat shield. While those things did help it, didn't fix it entirely, which lead me to the bigger battery.

As a side note I upgraded ALL the battery cables on my Burb to 2/0 shielded marine grade tinned copper wire that I soldered my own lugs on with marine/adhesive heat shrink to seal up the ends.
 

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So, at the beginning of this post, i mentioned my tale of woe with my bike biting the dust at high speed at night due to an electrical failure. And while there have been MANY good theories... oddly enough, (according to the shop's lead mechanic) we were all wrong!!! ...the negative battery cable is what caused the battery to fail...
Whoa! Ladies and Gentlemen, may I redirect your attention...
....It could be an intermittent connection or the battery "dropping a plate" (having one of the internal plates not making good connection)....

....I asked him how that would shut everything down, to which he replied that the factory OEM battery is an AGM lead acid, and, while sealed, is not designed to be mounted at an angle greater than parallel with the Earth for any extended duration of time, which ours is. He continued that all of the lead acid fluid would collect towards the bottom of the battery and leave the top-most cell nearly or completely dry, causing that cell to die in the process; thus, shortening the overall life of the battery. This then caused the low amp draws, the low CCA's, and strange voltage readings....
I feel a sneeze coming on...ahhhhhh BULLSHIT! (scuze me)

AGM (absorbed glass mat) is a special design glass mat designed to wick the battery electrolyte between the battery plates. AGM batteries contain only enough liquid to keep the mat wet with the electrolyte and if the battery is broken no free liquid is available to leak out. Absorbed Glass Matt batteries can be mounted on their sides with no problems, but should not be mounted upside down.


....While i'm inclined to believe he believes his assessment, i remain partially skeptical. What caused those wires to suddenly (or hell, even slowly) "weld" themselves together? How is the charging system okay after cranking out enough amperage to WELD several thousands of strands into a solid piece of wire? Will it do it again? Why put an OEM equivalent back in it if that is what got fried in the first place and "caused" the issue???
A loose connection can cause arcing, and like when welding the arc is damn hot, which will melt the copper lead. You had a loose connection, which is a common problem in motorcycles and reported commonly in past threads.


.... I asked if a leftover length of ought-gauge Oxygen Free Copper (OFC) wire from my subwoofer install would suffice? He said it would be overkill... :serious: ... He clearly doesn't know me very well....
Ohhh, the "oxygen free" wire....ohhhh.

Combining copper with oxygen forms some sort of oxide [like a cupric chloride/cupric hydroxide compound: CuCl2·3 Cu(OH)2], which is generally a greenish patina (like on bronze statues) or black embrittlement (like on trailer wires exposed to salt, which I believe is cupric oxide: Cu2O).

Copper wire doesn't come that way, it comes "copper colored" which is "oxygen free." Lamp cord is the same thing, albeit with a brown insulator instead of the thick clear magnifying insulator that Monster Cable comes with, and since this wire is low voltage (12V instead of 120V) it doesn't need a thick insulator anyway.

Side note: Crimping is better than soldering as there's better conductivity with a good squash of all copper than filling the voids with tin and lead. PLUS it's less prone to breaking since it's still flexable, just coat it with dielectric compound.


....So, as recommended, I purchased an EarthX model ETX24C.... Holy cow, talk about LIGHT! Not Bud Light, just regular light. But, D*MN! My .50 cal AR weighs less than the stock 13 lbs battery! This made me think I bought a $250 empty shell and the rest of the internals got lost in the mail....
It's an empty shell filled with Arctic Air, which is very dry and has a lot of static. DO NOT open the case or the air will leak out and the battery will be worthless. Also, wearing clothes softened with dryer sheets while driving the motorcycle will shorten the life of the battery due to the static dissipating properties imparted to the clothing.


....Maybe as part of an updated product page (Kbuskill's post is over 3 years old now), they do not recommend using a standard charger, but if you ABSOLUTELY MUST, as like part of a last ditch effort, have to use a standard battery charger, do NOT use one with a de-sulfate mode. Which IS mentioned by Kbuskill, ...so don't bash me over the head just yet. This isn't a shakedown or a bash on him or the EarthX. Lol. Hell, I just said I bought one and was happy with it. :p....
Whatever. If your EarthX battery gets low where it won't start the bike, charge it with anything but a de-sulfating charger (since the de-sulficatishion pulses will mess with the battery management circuitry built into the battery housing), for like 20 minutes, at 10 amps (or less) and you're good to go, the bike will charge it further. Just don't let the battery sit idle more than 8 months and it should be fine. It ain't magic. The bike's alternator supplies 14.4V DC, so any charger that's putting out 14.5V or less will charge the battery until the battery maintenance circuits determine the battery is full and cuts off the charge, OR the charger cuts off the charge based on output voltage.

Now, I'mma tell you this: Don't fully charge a lithium battery and stick it in the Fury. The initial out-rush of current is "more bigger" and can pop the main fuse. (The surge current of lithium batteries is incredibly high, plus with the much higher initial voltage of the battery...bzzzzt! Well, more like "spark" and then nothing.)

And before anyone tells you about mounting position, with lithium it doesn't matter. It's filled with "special air" and as such there's no vent.


What... is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?
An African or European swallow?
 

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A loose connection can cause arcing, and like when welding the arc is damn hot, which will melt the copper lead. You had a loose connection, which is a common problem in motorcycles and reported commonly in past threads.
I feel a sneeze of my own coming on...

To 2000F? No. Just no. Besides which any arcing is on the connector, not in the cable.



Ohhh, the "oxygen free" wire....ohhhh.

Combining copper with oxygen forms some sort of oxide [like a cupric chloride/cupric hydroxide compound: CuCl2·3 Cu(OH)2], which is generally a greenish patina (like on bronze statues) or black embrittlement (like on trailer wires exposed to salt, which I believe is cupric oxide: Cu2O).

Copper wire doesn't come that way, it comes "copper colored" which is "oxygen free." Lamp cord is the same thing, albeit with a brown insulator instead of the thick clear magnifying insulator that Monster Cable comes with, and since this wire is low voltage (12V instead of 120V) it doesn't need a thick insulator anyway.
Another sneeze...no. O2 free wire is a thing, but what he might mean is oxygen-free phosphorus-containing copper, which is indeed higher conductivity due to the phosphorus added in during the copper smelt.

Side note: Crimping is better than soldering as there's better conductivity with a good squash of all copper than filling the voids with tin and lead. PLUS it's less prone to breaking since it's still flexable, just coat it with dielectric compound.
I must be allergic to something in here, I just keep on sneezing. No. Soldering is always better. The only thing that will top it is ultrasonic wire welding.


It's an empty shell filled with Arctic Air, which is very dry and has a lot of static. DO NOT open the case or the air will leak out and the battery will be worthless. Also, wearing clothes softened with dryer sheets while driving the motorcycle will shorten the life of the battery due to the static dissipating properties imparted to the clothing.
You must be new to this. It's smoke. Any technician will tell you to NEVER let the smoke out...
 

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Note I completely respect your experience regarding the Fury, but will respectfully disagree on a few points:

To 2000F? No. Just no. Besides which any arcing is on the connector, not in the cable.
Arcing generates an amazing amount of heat, and copper has a fairly low melting point and conducts (sinks) heat really, really well, and as such copper cabling can melt itself down with a bad connection. (For high-end equipment copper heat sinks are even better than aluminum, just they're more expensive.)

Poor connections can be very efficient at overheating, because they can generate a high wattage over a small area for a long period of time. This is evidenced in the research from William J. Meese and Robert W. Beausoliel in the “Exploratory Study of Glowing Electrical Connections,” published by the National Bureau of Standards, and NFPA 921, the “Guide for Fire and Explosion Investigations” from NFPA.
Another sneeze...no. O2 free wire is a thing, but what he might mean is oxygen-free phosphorus-containing copper, which is indeed higher conductivity due to the phosphorus added in during the copper smelt.
Hmmm, your allergies must be messing with you. Do you mean Oxygen-free Extra Low Phosphorus Copper? Because that has the desired properties, but is only useful in very specialized applications (not here, and not in speaker wire).



I must be allergic to something in here, I just keep on sneezing. No. Soldering is always better. The only thing that will top it is ultrasonic wire welding.
I thought so too years ago, and was incorrect. In the aviation industry, they prefer crimp connections to soldering:
- “Cold” solder joints can cause problems if the connector is not soldered properly to the cable, observing solder flow through the contact solder hole.
- Soldered joints between contact and center conductor can work harden if subjected to excessive vibration during use and develop micro-cracks followed by solder fatigue.
- Soldering can be inconsistent and subject to failure as a result of mechanical or temperature stresses.
- A good crimp connection is gas tight and won’t wick: it is sometimes referred to as a “cold weld”.
- A properly crimped connector will be slightly flared at the mouth. This is called the bell-mouth condition and helps relieve stress on the wire.

Our bikes are similar, where electrical connections are crucial (@Rammerator crashed because of a bad one), and it's a high-vibration / possibly high moisture environment. Soldering is great for putting components into/onto circuit boards, crimping works great for automotive cable applications (which is why the factories do it). However, ya need a professional crimping tool and proper dies.



You must be new to this. It's smoke. Any technician will tell you to NEVER let the smoke out...
:grin: I can tell you're old-school. The new, environmentally-friendly, technologically-advanced method is to use "Pure Arctic Air." (You still dump your used motor oil down the sewer, don't you? No worries, so do I...)

 

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The melting point of copper is 2000F roughly. Aluminum melts quite a bit lower, 1200F. https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/melting-temperature-metals-d_860.html And again, no.

I never said it would be a good idea in this application, just that it exists, and does EXACTLY what he said. Opposite from your snark, it IS a thing.

Again with your aviation fetish. I will go higher. I am NASA certified in soldering. I have work in up space. You NEVER crimp. Period. Solder. Always.

Disagree all you want, doesn't change that you are still wrong.
 
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